January 24, 2025
Ever wondered what it’s like to build, sell, and then buy back your own company? You’re about to find out in this episode!
I’m sitting down with Jasmine Star in this episode, and she introduces me as the genius behind BestSelf Co. — the brand that’s transformed how we set and smash our goals with brilliant journals.
My journey is nothing short of remarkable. We’re talking about raising $300K in just 30 days, navigating embezzlement, dealing with partnership breakups, selling my business, and then—plot twist—buying it back!
About the Episode
In this episode, we talk about:
- The ONE thing you need before you even think about launching a crowdfunding campaign.
- How I kept my crowdfunding rewards simple yet impactful.
- It’s not just about the funds! I explain how backers can boost visibility in your campaign.
- Curious about raising over $322K in just a month? I break it all down in this episode.
- And more!
Video
Watch the full episode below, or click here to watch it on YouTube.
Transcript
Jasmine Star: So your content was largely: this is how you set, this is how you create, and this is how you achieve your goals.
Cathryn Lavery: Yes, a lot of people have three-month journals, but we were the first ones to do it. It was like having something people had to buy more frequently. Another thing was so good, having people find success with the product, because if you can sell it once, how do you get people to come back? That was creating content, creating resources, creating frameworks. Because a lot of people don’t learn how to set goals or even what they should be doing. So we put a lot of time and effort into how do we create so that they know exactly what they have to do when they get this to be successful. Because if they are successful, they’ll come back.
Jasmine Star: Welcome to The Jasmine Star Show, a place where we talk about life, business, mindset, and today, your best self. I have to tell you that in preparation for this conversation, I have done a deep dive into what it takes to build an e-commerce business, stuff that’s, like, very interesting to me. When people are like, “Jasmine, what’s your hobby?” I’m like, I just look at businesses. I just look at business models. That is what I do in my free time. My husband and I are co-founders. We go to restaurants, we count tables, we see how many chairs there are. We see the average turnaround. We’re looking at price, profitability, what we’d change in the pricing structure. We are sick. And you want to know what? I knew that the minute I met Kat. She, too, understood the language that I speak. She has built a business, she has sold a business, she has bought a business. And somehow all of those things are interconnected. And her story is going to empower you to think about business in a different way, but also to think about how you pursue your best self. On that note, Kat, welcome to The Jasmine Star Show.
Cathryn Lavery: Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here.
Jasmine Star: I am so happy you are here. Now, I normally stay away from podcasting where I’m like, tell us your origin story. Because somebody who’s listening, I think that they deserve our absolute best. And when I hear your story, what I hear is a pure story of grit, stamina, strategy, resilience, coming back next time, best time. It’s like I hear all of these things, and I’m like, we could pick up the story anywhere in the story. I think that there are so many juicy parts to it. And I look at your story, and I look at it kind of like in four sections. Now I know that there are so many iterations of it, but I think about the fundraising part of it. I’m not going to spill any details. I want you to, like, run at this, because it’s so fascinating to me. We have the fundraising, we have the build, we have the sell. We have a new chapter. And so in my mind, I’m like, okay, do we start at the beginning? Which is not anywhere where I start, but I think it’s freaking fascinating. Do we start where we are now and then work backwards? You tell me the greatest value. Someone’s like, I’m not sure this podcast is going to be for me. I don’t do e-commerce. The show is not about e-commerce, y’all. The show is about a thousand different things. I’m so fascinated. Where do we go and say, you want to watch, you want to listen, you want to watch this show? Where are we at in your story?
Cathryn Lavery: So let’s go back to the beginning, because I think anyone watching this who’s starting a business has started a business. And a lot of times we, like, see people on podcasts like this, and you’re like, oh, they’re so far ahead of me. Like, how do I get there?
Jasmine Star: Good.
Cathryn Lavery: And before I started my first business, I literally never read a business book, and so I never took a business class. I was an architect, and I knew how to, like, make stuff, but I didn’t know how to sell stuff. In fact, it was, like, almost successful in spite of not being able to sell. Like, I hated selling. And so I wouldn’t even email my list unless I had something new to show them. And then I had to pay someone just to send emails because I’m like, look, I can’t do it. And then I started BestSelf when we launched with crowdfunding. So it’s like, here’s a product. I think people will love it. I also didn’t have the money to buy a bunch and try to see if it sold. So crowdfunding is a great way to fundraise for making something exist and seeing if people actually want it. Because people can say that they want it, but if they open their wallet and actually give you money…
Jasmine Star: Okay, this is the part that I found fascinating. So if we take it, I’m also a storyteller, so it’s like you and I are actually meeting in person for the first time. But it’s like, in the story of my mind, what I see is somebody who has a skill set and has an idea, and the world in which I come from, it’s like, just brute force. I’m just gonna break down every wall and every door. And you and I… I think that I… I sometimes picture, oh, she’s an architect. She thinks about everything from all sides. She thinks about foundation, teaching this to build. And so what you did is you said, I have this idea, and we’ll talk about that idea and where you got that idea, but I’m gonna take it to crowdfund, and if people buy it before I’ve spent a penny, then I know it’s proof of concept. Then the risk is really the risk of an idea.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah.
Jasmine Star: So what is the idea that you came up with, and then what were the results?
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah. So I had my previous business. I had learned how to do crowdfunding. A friend taught me. He was just like, why didn’t you crowdfund? Because I used to just make a product and then sell it on my site. And he was like, you should crowdfund it. So I set up my first crowdfunding two weeks later. And then I ran a couple for a previous business. And then I figured out, like, okay, here’s the kind of system of how to do it, but let me…
Jasmine Star: Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You are not going to come on this podcast and not talk about the system. Somebody’s listening, and they’re like, wow, I’m listening to Kat. I’m feeling inspired. I want to test an idea. What are three things that somebody who’s setting up their crowdfunding? Like, what are the three things now that you know, like, you know, girl, you kind of killed the game. What are those things that you would recommend somebody?
Cathryn Lavery: So a lot of people think, like, oh, I’ll just set up a crowdfunding, and people will come and buy. It’s like, you have to set up an email list just like you would for any other product launch. Kickstarter is not going to send traffic to you unless they know you’re successful because they want… And also, if you get new people that have never been on their platform before, they’re like, oh, we got… They’re basically like, the more people back a project, the more they’re likely to back future projects. So they’re basically customers of, like, Kickstarter, Indiegogo. So if you bring new people to their platform, they will reward you by giving you traffic. And so generally, what I’ve seen with…
Jasmine Star: Okay, hold on. I’m gonna break this down. If I’m crowdfunding a project and you’re crowdfunding a project, I bring in, like, I tell my people, “Hey, come in and crowdfund. Buy this thing, buy this thing.” And then since they come onto the platform, Indiegogo or any other crowdsourcing site can be like, “Hey, can you check out Kat’s?”
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah, so what? They’ll know you’re sending them to your site. So you’re like, come to my party. And then there are other people at the party that they’re like, oh, can you also back this project? Because once people are on the platform, they’re more likely to buy, and…
Jasmine Star: Got it.
Cathryn Lavery: Another got-it thing. So one of the first things is, like, building an email list of people that are going to be interested in your product. So for my product, what became BestSelf, that list was grown, like, really organically. It was like a giveaway for only products that people who’d be interested in our product would buy. So you’re not trying to grow the biggest list ever. Like, oh, here’s an iPad or a MacBook Pro. It’s like, yeah, everyone wants that. But when you come to launch your thing, like, nobody’s going to care. So only, like, the weirdos that are going to like your product, give other products that they would like.
Jasmine Star: Okay, let’s break this down. What do you do? So, like, you’re building, you’re selling…
Cathryn Lavery: So we created the Self Journal, and it was a goal-based journal. Like, we’ll show you how to set a goal, break it down in three months. So it’s a journal, and we’re like, Bulletproof Coffee, productivity books, software that people who are only interested in good software that only, like, Type-A people are going to be interested in. And so whenever we, like, send out the email, “Oh, we launched this.” So it’s like other problems being solved by other products that are around the circle of what it is that we’re trying to do.
Jasmine Star: Very cool. So number one was to build a newsletter list on the back of your…
Cathryn Lavery: Crowdfunding project and then also to just have simple rewards. Because here’s what people do: they set up a crowdfunding thing, and they’re like, okay, we have the main thing that’s in the video, and then we have a T-shirt with our company name and a hat with a company name and, like, all this other bullshit that nobody actually wants. So what you’re actually doing is, people just want the thing and multiples of the thing. And so you have to have, like, a really simple structure of, like, just, like, the most discounted it’s ever going to be. And, like, so it’s, like, one journal, two journals, four journals, ten journals. And you’re really just trying to… Because that’s all people want. And so what you do when you try to complicate it is, like, you’re gonna finish, and you’re like, God, I have to find a T-shirt manufacturer. And I… That, like, nobody even wants. But they want to support you. And then also doing, like, a dollar reward, because, again, the crowdfunding people, like, some people are not going to be into your journal. Right. Which is fine, but they might want to support you. But if you put a reward with no actual, like, physical reward, people can back you. And then, like, a donation. Yeah, well, not a donation. It’s, like, $1. I support this project, but I don’t want this journal.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: And so what Kickstarter is actually rewarding is the more people you get to your project, the better than the actual, like, money.
Jasmine Star: Because it’s acquisition for… Yeah.
Cathryn Lavery: And so if you understand, like, how do you make it a win for them, then you can also make it a win for… And then you’re getting the popular one. You’re appearing on the website, they’re showing you to other projects. And so if people back one, they’re more likely to back another.
Jasmine Star: Okay, so what you did was you put out your… You put out your project to test it, and then in order for you to test it, you were also building a newsletter list, and then you had aligned incentives, because if people want to journal, they’re not really there for a hat. So you started driving incentives by: you bundle and save. That seems like a very clear value-add and gets your product more out to people. And then also finding a way for people to be a part of the project, even if they don’t actually want the product itself. It’s just, like, a “Hey, I see you.” And this is something that I’m about. Okay, so crowdfunding tips from Kat. There you go. We’re already starting with the value-add. So somebody’s looking, and they’re watching, and they’re hearing this, and they’re like, huh, I can start doing this. But what happens in that gestation process? Like, what happens in that iteration that kind of blows your mind and says, like, oh, this is different than anything…
Cathryn Lavery: I’ve done before because we… Our goal was $15,000. We hit… We hit that in a day and a half.
Jasmine Star: Wow.
Cathryn Lavery: And then we raised, like, $322,000 in a month. And so what…
Jasmine Star: Oh, my God.
Cathryn Lavery: We basically sold over 10,000 units in the month. And so when we priced our rewards, we priced them based on, like, the MOQ, which I believe was, like, a thousand units.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: So that was enough money to, like, we basically made 30,000 units. We pre-sold 10. And that was enough money to strategically, like, set up the company so we never had to raise money again. And that is how I, like, tell people to think about crowdfunding. You, like, don’t always have to go back there, but if you use it as, like, a launchpad of, like, okay, I pre-sold this much, how do I make enough? Because you know the scale of economies, like, especially with printing, it goes down the more you print.
Jasmine Star: Yeah.
Cathryn Lavery: And so it might have been, like, 50 cents less per unit because of the amount we did. And that’s, like, strategic how you build a company that you don’t have to keep going back there for.
Jasmine Star: Okay, so one last clarifying question. If I put out and I want to test my idea, do I want to set a big goal? Like, you said, $15,000. People are like, oh, my goal is a hundred thousand.
Cathryn Lavery: I mean, my internal goal, actually, my goal that I had written in the journal was $200,000. So my… my goal was $15,000. But you want to hit that quickly, and you also want to have that make sense to your goal. So, like, we’re coming out with a journal. $15,000 makes sense. A guy I ran into at a party once, he’s like, yeah, I tried to, like, launch Kickstarter, and it didn’t work right. And I was like, okay, what was it for? And he’s like, a book. And I’m like, what was the goal? And he was like, $100,000. I’m like, yeah, no, if I had set my goal at $100,000, like, I wouldn’t have gotten probably funded because people go on there, and they’re like, oh, she’s only, like, 20% to her goal. Even though they get their money back, there’s, like, a, oh, I don’t want to, like, back it until it’s… You want to back a winning horse, and so you become a winning horse, and then you start adding, like, bonuses on to the point where it’s, like, oh, a no-brainer because you start adding in…
Jasmine Star: Interesting. That is such a big key takeaway. The psychology of the way that people are looking at funding. And so you funded, not even your business, you funded the idea, which turned into the business. And so, okay, so you raise over $300,000, and then= then what?
Cathryn Lavery: And then we, well, then we’re like, okay, now we have to figure out how to deliver these to customers. So it was just, like, manufacturing, and then every stage of business, it’s like figuring out the problem when you actually have sales. That’s a good problem. It’s like, okay, now how do I get us a 3PL or, you know, a ship? Like, someone to actually ship it to customers that isn’t me. And were you doing that at all? I did it with a previous business, but I, like, gave up. I was like, I cannot do this.
Jasmine Star: Okay, good. Okay. So you set up this… You set up this new venture entirely different. You knew you were going to do 3PL. And so, like, what kind of problems are you solving? Like, so people are saying, oh, cry me a river, Kat. You raised $300,000. You’re like, but let’s go back to, like, where you were. It’s like, I have the money. Yeah, I know. It’s the idea. What logistical things are coming up for you?
Cathryn Lavery: Well, I mean, one of the things is, like, promising that stuff was going to be delivered by Christmas. So if it’s not, the campaign doesn’t end till mid-September. Like, manufacturing, getting it on a ship, getting it to the US, and then shipping it to customers. We did get it for the US customers, but for, like, the UK and Australia, it took, like, a few more weeks. Okay, so stuff like that, where it’s like, look, how do we get this container so that it arrives earlier? So it’s like disappointing people because you didn’t know what to expect before you started. So that’s always one thing I tell people is, like, take the time that you think it’s going to take and then, like, double it.
Jasmine Star: How did you deal with that for the people in the UK and Australia? They were disappointed that they didn’t get it by Christmas. What did you…
Cathryn Lavery: I mean, I think we were just, like, look, we were unreasonable with our expectations. I think it came maybe early January, if not, like, the first week in January. So it’s, like, they could still start it pretty early, but it just didn’t come before the 25th because, like, everyone in the world is trying to ship their stuff at the same time. Yeah. But getting it to the US people, we did manage. And so that was, like, a big good, good.
Jasmine Star: Okay, so when we go back to that, like, origin story and your building, what are some of, like, the pitfalls? Like, if we go back to that… What? The look on your face. You’re like, all the things.
Cathryn Lavery: I mean, so I… I launched the crowdfunding campaign in 2015. Then we launched the Shopify store January 1, 2016. And I mean, I was, like, a workaholic, just hustling, like, constantly. We… I think it took us about six months to hire. So it’s just, like, dealing with customer service, doing everything, which in some ways is good because you learn how to do everything. So, like, anyone that comes in, I’m like, I’ve done this.
Jasmine Star: Yeah.
Cathryn Lavery: Like, I know what it takes, sort of thing. But then it’s just, like, you don’t have enough hours in the day.
Jasmine Star: Yeah.
Cathryn Lavery: And we were growing fast. But again, because I didn’t…
Jasmine Star: How many people are you at when you say “we”? At the time, were you… What… What did…
Cathryn Lavery: Well, at the time, myself and my co-founder.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: It was the two of us. And then I think we hired a customer support person in, like, June of 2016.
Jasmine Star: Wow.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah.
Jasmine Star: So it was okay.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah. And… And just learning the stuff that one of us wasn’t good at or both of us weren’t good at. I was like, oh, my God.
Jasmine Star: Right.
Cathryn Lavery: I think operationally, we could have used someone much earlier than we found someone, because entrepreneurs, it’s like, we know a lot of entrepreneurs, and we often try to hire our friends.
Jasmine Star: Yes.
Cathryn Lavery: Who are not operations people. And so it doesn’t work out that well. So that’s one thing is, like, we’d look around and be like, who else can we hire that we know? Like, oh, we’ll try… We’ll try to fit this square peg into a round hole of operations when that’s, like, not what they want to do at all. And… And not what they’re good at, which you should be fine. So we tried that for a while, and then I realized, like, it took me a few years of, like, doing things wrong to be like, oh, yeah, this is how you hire better. But I also went through an embezzlement thing in 2020. I went through a business partner breakup, and, like, he kind of stepped out in 2018, but I didn’t know anything about vesting. And so it was, like, 50% of the company, like, walked out the door. So then I spent two years dealing with that.
Jasmine Star: It’s 2016. It’s June 2016, and you hire your first customer service person. But if I’m doing the math correctly, that was six months of you and your co-founder doing everything in the business.
Cathryn Lavery: Pretty much, yeah.
Jasmine Star: Then in June of 2016, halfway through the year, you bring in your customer service person, and then a year and a half later, your co-founder says, peace out.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah. So we won the Shopify Build a Business competition in August of 2016.
Jasmine Star: Now talk to me about that. What? Did you apply for this? I don’t know anything.
Cathryn Lavery: So Shopify did this really cool thing where they were like, how do we motivate people to find success with our platform? So they did the smart thing where they created a contest where it was, like, six different categories, and it was based on sales over two… like, I think over two months. Some maximum thing, I forget the exact rules, but basically… So essentially, the winners of that contest got to ring the New York Stock Exchange bell. They got to go to, for us, go to the Gatsby Mansion with Tony Robbins and Tim Ferriss. So they were like, how do we create a prize that you can’t buy with money that would entice people? So good. And actually, the competition launched… they announced it the day after our Kickstarter ended. And I was like, well, this is just fate. Like, we’re definitely going to enter this. And what’s funny is, with the previous business I had, I… I didn’t even get close to it, but it was one of those things where I was just like, oh, my God, this is so cool. So we…
Jasmine Star: Okay, one thing, I’ve never heard about this before, and I’m like, I, I want to do this competition. This sounds like freaking amazing. But hold on. So everybody on the Shopify platform is eligible?
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah, you have to enter it. But basically, if you’re a… I think it had… You had to be a new store within, you know, a year of that. And with that, under, like, a million dollars in revenue when you started. I forget exactly.
Jasmine Star: So good.
Cathryn Lavery: So we started January 1st, and we hit, like, 2.3 million. And so we ended up winning in one of our categories. And then we were invited by Tony to this, like, business mastery the next…
Jasmine Star: Did you just say Tony? Like Tony Robbins? Yeah, like, we were just invited by Tony. Oh, my God.
Cathryn Lavery: So then they announced the Build a Bigger Business, which is, like, a scaling one. They were like, okay, if you are over a million, how do you scale in a year? And we ended up winning that one as well in 2017, which we did not expect. And at the top, you did 2.6…
Jasmine Star: In year one, 2.3 in year one. 2.3 in year one. And then you do this scaling competition…
Cathryn Lavery: Like, 6.8 or something like that.
Jasmine Star: Good lord.
Cathryn Lavery: And it was just, like, mayhem. And we did hire people, obviously, but it was just, like, I didn’t, we didn’t have a clue what we were doing.
Jasmine Star: So you… You have this, like, massive jump. And… Yes, you’re hiring. And I want to talk about… Well, let’s talk about the prize of the second competition, because I know I’m gonna get DMs and be like, well, we know that she got to be first, Tony. Oh, yes.
Cathryn Lavery: She got to go to Fiji to stay at Tony Robbins’ resort. And, like, Tim Ferriss and Marie Forleo and Joe from Airbnb. So they had all these, like, mentors. And the great thing about… So the Gatsby Mansion was so close to New York that, like, the mentors would be there for a few hours. Daymond John, I did play Monopoly with him for, like, six hours.
Jasmine Star: Okay, okay.
Cathryn Lavery: Like, 2:00 a.m. Please tell me you beat him.
Jasmine Star: Please tell me…
Cathryn Lavery: No, but it was down to the two of us.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: And it was, like, 2 in the morning. He literally had a car waiting outside for, like, three hours.
Jasmine Star: Oh, my God. I love this story. I love this story.
Cathryn Lavery: And he, like, travels with his own Monopoly board. Like, it’s legit. And his, like, I don’t know if it’s a bodyguard… who… He was, like, the banker. And I swear, the pictures of this guy were so funny. Anyway, but I ended up getting an affiliate deal with Daymond after that Monopoly game. His manager was like, okay, he likes you. You could… You should reach out.
Jasmine Star: That’s the best freaking Monopoly game I know. Oh, my God.
Cathryn Lavery: It’s good that he won.
Jasmine Star: I know, exactly. Yeah. Who really won? You.
Cathryn Lavery: So…
Jasmine Star: Oh, my God.
Cathryn Lavery: And then the great thing about Fiji was that we’re all, like, trapped on this island. So…
Jasmine Star: So, like, they couldn’t come in and out.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah. So they’re all just there. Like, Tim is just, like, hanging out. And, like, Tony was still the one that was, like, this giant, but everyone else, like, the mentors really were, like, around you and talking more than just, like, the hour session you had at the Gatsby Mansion. That was pretty cool.
Jasmine Star: Oh, my God, I’m so fascinated by this story. Okay, okay, okay. See, see, this is… I didn’t even know. I’ve done creeping on you, and I didn’t even know all of this stuff. So let’s go back to the actual, like, storyline and logistics. And so by the end of 2016, how many team members do you have the year that you do 2.3? And I ask you a question. Why is you drinking water? I’m sorry. I’m just so great at this.
Cathryn Lavery: God… Four or five. I don’t remember.
Jasmine Star: Okay. And then the following year, as you guys scale, how big does the team…
Cathryn Lavery: become? I mean, I think at the max, the team was, like, 14 maybe. Okay.
Jasmine Star: And as you guys are growing, and I want to go back… Okay. I want to go two ways, and I want to say it out loud so I don’t forget one. I want to know what in the world were you doing for marketing to be growing in this degree? Because, for all intents and purposes, I’m sure it’s a phenomenal journal. It’s a journal, right? And so what the heck. And then the second part is the timeline of the departure of your co-founder. Because I find it, like, just odd that was so much success. Like, so what was happening along there? So let’s talk about marketing of the business.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah, so I mean, one of the things, our product is a three-month-based product. And so…
Jasmine Star: Oh, yes, yes.
Cathryn Lavery: And that really was around the framework of how we look at goals, but it also made sense business-wise.
Jasmine Star: Yeah, it does.
Cathryn Lavery: Four times a year.
Jasmine Star: Okay, hold on, pause, pause, pause. Because I heard this before. This is so freaking fascinating. Most journals, planners, goal-setting are in the context of 12 months. And you, like all of your competition, are looking at 90-day, three-month goals. Except for the fact that your offer comes in a three-month goal-setting journal where your competition is 12 months.
Cathryn Lavery: Right.
Jasmine Star: So you get to sell four products to one. Cha-ching.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah.
Jasmine Star: So good.
Cathryn Lavery: And so good.
Jasmine Star: Was that intentional? Were you guys, like, that strategic about it, or… No, because we’re making a three-month journal because we want you to hit your goals in three months.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah, I mean, I came up with the idea of, like, a three-month journal because that’s how I worked better. Because a year-long, it’s like, I mean, imagine setting a year-long goal in January of 2020.
Jasmine Star: Right.
Cathryn Lavery: It’s like, I’m like, oh, yeah, we have a pandemic. But if you set a three-month goal in March, you’re like, all right, we got to switch.
Jasmine Star: I got to change some gears. Okay. Yeah.
Cathryn Lavery: And so that’s just what worked for me also because I have, like, ADHD, and I have a year, I’ll… I will wait until the last minute to do anything. And so for me, that’s what worked. And now a lot of people have three-month journals, but we were the first ones to do it. And so it’s, like, one of the things was, like, having something people had to buy more frequently. Another thing was so good, having people find success with the product because, like, if you can sell it once, how do you get people to come back? And so that was creating content, creating resources, creating frameworks. Because a lot of people, they don’t, like, learn how to set goals or even what they should be doing. So we put a lot of time and effort into how do we create so that they know exactly what they have to do when they get this to be successful. Because if they are successful, they’ll come back, and they’re… Goodbye.
Jasmine Star: So your content was largely: This is how you set, this is how you create, and this is how you achieve your goals.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah. And it’s, like, oh, you have a health goal. This is, like, five people that had health goals and exactly what they put in their journal every day. And so it’s, like, how do we minimize the amount of, like, thinking that people have to do?
Jasmine Star: So good.
Cathryn Lavery: So it’s, like, Kat, so good.
Jasmine Star: Yeah, I keep on jumping in. No, it’s just because I was raised in a church, and you just talk back. So I’m cutting you off, but I’m like, no. So good. I’ll just repeat… You’re like, three journals. Three journals. Three months. Yes. Three. Like, I’ll just repeat back, but, like, go. This is so good.
Cathryn Lavery: But I think at the end of 2017, so we had the journal, and then we had some side products, but the journal was, like, 75% of our revenue in 2017. Which I was just like, oh, my God, this is stressful, because it’s one single point of failure.
Jasmine Star: Right.
Cathryn Lavery: And so one mistake we made is, like, I went through a lot of, like, I actually got divorced in 2017. And at the same time, we’re, like, winning the Build a Bigger Business competition. So I’m in Fiji, and all this, like, I… I bumped into this guy, and he’s like, oh, everything’s going amazing for you. Because, like, social media will say that. I’m like, yeah, I’m actually going through a divorce. Not a contentious one. Like, we were still on good terms, but it was, like, a chapter of my life was ending. And it got me to this point where I was, like, BestSelf at that point had been, like, your Type-A, most productive self. But I’m like, oh, when you… I’m, like, winning all these competitions, I’m like, it’s not really that fun whenever you’re, like, working all the time, but then you haven’t paid attention to your, like, personal life. And so that kind of started me on a path of, like, oh, I never want to, like, get divorced again or go through this relationship stuff. Let me figure out how do I have a good relationship? And so I kind of went down that path. And my… My old team used to joke, like, whatever BestSelf will come up with is just, like, whatever Kat’s dealing with. So originally, I was, like, I read all these personal development books. I’m like, I need to create a framework that I just know if I follow this, I’ll get to my goal, which is what the journal came with. And so then BestSelf, I’m like, I need to figure out, like, what should I be doing in a relationship to make sure, like, we’re connected. And that became what led to, like, the Intimacy Deck, which became the top seller beyond the journal. So it was, like, how do we… BestSelf is not just, like, your most productive Type-A self. It’s, like, what does it mean for you? It’s, like, a great relationship with your partner, with your kids, with your family. Also, you want to hit your goals. And so I think that’s, like, where BestSelf really started is, like, when I went through this, like, period of, oh, actually, this is what this brand actually means. And I was only looking at it from this, like, tiny…
Jasmine Star: Yeah.
Cathryn Lavery: Skewed view of, like, only in business. But I’m like, I hit all these business goals, and then I’m like, oh, this doesn’t feel good. Why not?
Jasmine Star: So beautiful. Can we pause and talk about the Intimacy Deck? And I’m gonna go back, girl. This noggin is large and in charge. I’m gonna hit all those data points. But now we talk about the Intimacy Deck. That is outsold the journal. And so I’m like, okay, what was that?
Cathryn Lavery: So it hasn’t outsold the journal, but it’s our new top-selling new product.
Jasmine Star: Okay, thank you.
Cathryn Lavery: And it’s a 150-deck prompt card. And I call it, like, a Trojan horse for therapy within couples that doesn’t feel like therapy. It feels like a game.
Jasmine Star: So good.
Cathryn Lavery: And so it’s, like, six different categories. We worked with relationship experts to come up with questions that would both strengthen your bond and then increase vulnerability so you could actually talk about real things without having one person ask the question. Because here’s the thing: it’s, like, I’m not asking that. Like, the cards are asking. I should have brought some. I’m so mad.
Jasmine Star: I’m… Because I actually would be like, oh, my God, I want to do one. Like, my husband is here today, and he would have… It would have been so awkward. And I would have freaking loved it, like, asking us…
Cathryn Lavery: I’m so mad at myself.
Jasmine Star: Oh, my gosh. No. It’s happening for a reason. Because he’s… He’s cringing off-camera. I know. He’s like, you want us to do…
Cathryn Lavery: I’m going to deliver something.
Jasmine Star: Car therapy on our podcast. I live for that stuff. I love being uncomfortable, and I don’t necessarily step into uncomfortable situations, but I also don’t back down from a challenge. If you had brought them, girl… JD is like, thank God those cards aren’t here. I’m so fascinated with this. That’s so beautiful. That’s amazing.
Cathryn Lavery: So we also… So we came out with the Intimacy Deck. So it was basically, like, intimacy icebreakers and then Little Talk for you and your kids.
Jasmine Star: I saw that. So Little Talk is fascinating because I’m picking up a deck for Luna.
Cathryn Lavery: I’m gonna send something to your hotel.
Jasmine Star: Oh, thank you. Oh, my hotel. But dang, baby. See, and that’s the thing. That’s the difference. That is the difference of you. You said, I’m gonna bring them to your hotel. And I was like, I’ll make sure that they’re mailed. No.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah, you get it done. I already found out.
Jasmine Star: Shopify competition. I would have lost. Thanks.
Cathryn Lavery: Thanks.
Jasmine Star: Wow.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah. So, okay, talk to us…
Jasmine Star: But… But talk to us about the… What was it? The Little Talk deck?
Cathryn Lavery: The Little Talk… So it’s conversation, like, big conversations for your kids. Because a lot of times you’re like, oh, how was your day? And it’s like you get caught in… I mean, I have a toddler, so we’re not at that point. I still ask her, but, yeah, there’s not much conversation. And one thing that we were hearing from customers is, like, okay, how do I have conversations with my kid in a way where they’ll actually open up to me? And same way as, like, it’s vulnerable to be, like, ask your kid a question. Because in their mind, they’re like, why are they asking me this? What does it mean?
Jasmine Star: Yes.
Cathryn Lavery: And when there’s a card… Yeah, it’s, like, the card’s asking me. And so I can be much more open. And so it just, like, removes a lot of walls that would otherwise be there. And so we’ve gotten, like, a ton of… That’s beautiful. And the deck started from… I was trying to sell this other product. And so I’m just, like, always working through, like, oh, what’s the objection? Like, objections. When someone’s journaling, I’m like, I see…
Jasmine Star: So you’re creating ancillary… What I would call in the traditional digital marketing world, it’d be bonus content for an objection refutal. And so if somebody is journaling, and they get stuck, or they say, I won’t buy a journal because I don’t, and then that becomes the next offer. Or in my world, it’d be a bonus, but for you, it’d be, like, an extension of the product suite.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah, basically. Well, I was trying to sell this other product because I’m trying to teach people how to journal.
Jasmine Star: Okay?
Cathryn Lavery: And so this is the way my mind works. Like, okay, how to get people to journal, because they’ll just write the same thing every day, and they won’t really get it. So it’s, like, okay, how do we give them a question to journal on? Oh, and then when you sell journals, everything’s a journal, which I didn’t want. I didn’t want to be the journal company, which is what people were calling us. And so I was like, if you have a prompt in a journal, and I’m like, I don’t feel like that prompt today. I don’t want to write about that, okay? And then I have to skip a page, and that’s annoying me because I don’t want to leave, like, a blank page. Like, I never want to answer. So I, like, really go deep, okay? And I was like, oh, you know, it’ll be better…
Jasmine Star: So good at product. Dang it, girl.
Cathryn Lavery: And I’m like, oh, but we’d better be cards. And so the cards actually came from trying to sell another product. And those cards were, like, the Edison Deck, which is, like, coming up with ideas, Wordsmith, which is journaling prompts. And so what happened was those sold really well. And then on a product call, we were like, you know what people do more than they journal is they have conversations. And so then… So everything, like, spirals from somewhere. But the goal is how you, like, so good, becoming a problem… So I talk about this, like, problem-first company instead of a product-first. So it’s, like, not everything should be a product that we sell. And so sometimes it’s, like, oh, we could create this to sell. I’m like, yeah, we could also just send them an email. And, like, we don’t need to waste our resources, like, building a product that we give away for free.
Jasmine Star: You win. You win. I think more than anything, I think what’s happened with the podcast is I’ve become very fortunate to have conversations. But really what it is, is I’m going to business school. And I think that main thing, we’re not even… We’re, like, a third way through this conversation. My main thing is, like, I want to be a problem-based company, and I’m really great at coming up with products. And I’m like, no, no, no. The better the problem I solve for, the more it’s clear or the highest results or the fastest or the cheapest or the most expensive, depending on what type of brand I’m building, then it’s a sure fit.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah.
Jasmine Star: And I just think that that was, like, the reminder that I needed. Okay, so we’re here. We’re talking about the decks, we’re talking about the conversations. We’re talking about being a problem-led company, we’re talking about the iterations, we’re talking about the growth. But if we go back to 2017, and you’re on the island, and you’re going through a divorce, you’re also winning competitions. You’re talking about the structure of what needs to change about the journal because it’s a holistic best self. What happens in 2018? And were you, did you kind of sense that there was gonna be a departure from your business partner? What… Where were you at in 2018? Did it hit you out of the blue? What does this look like?
Cathryn Lavery: I think, well, he had… he had a kid in 2018, and I think we had hired any role that he was doing. And I think at the time, honestly, we could have had harder conversations. And that’s something I learned about myself is, like, a lot of the pain that I put myself through in later business years started because of my inability to, like, have a hard conversation earlier and, like, delaying it, which really only makes it harder later. And so that’s kind of where we… where we were at. And it took until 2020 for me to be like, okay, this is done. And I wrote a huge article, like, what I learned that I would do differently. Like, a lot of times you start these business partnerships, and I did 50/50 because I thought it’s, like, oh, that seems fair, but fair doesn’t mean equal. And so whenever you, like, 50/50 a partnership in the beginning, it’s like starting… Sometimes it’s unfair to one person at the beginning, and it evens out, or sometimes it’s unfair, and it continues to be more unfair as you go on. And I think when you can’t have a hard conversation and actually, like, make a decision, you’re actually… you’re settling in the beginning of, like, a partnership because you don’t want to have a hard conversation. And so I think that’s real. If you really sat down and… and this doesn’t mean that there aren’t 50/50 partnerships that work. But I see more that don’t work because of insecurity. Like, I was super insecure. And so at the time, I was like, oh, I don’t wanna… I don’t think I’m worth what I am. And when I look back, I’m like, I totally was. I just didn’t… I just, like, underestimated what I could do. And I also was partnered with someone that was, like, really charming, like, really good talker, very good-looking. And so I’m like, oh, this is awesome. And he actually was great at the beginning of the company because he was very good. Like, I would kind of show my work, and he would talk the work, and together we’d make stuff happen. And so even my wife… No, I was like, actually, that was a good thing that you had that because you’re not very self-promotional, and you needed someone like that in the beginning.
Jasmine Star: That’s beautiful. Okay, okay. Lessons learned. Gratitude for the lesson. Stuff that you won’t repeat again. Finding self-worth in that journey. And so the business partner departs, along with him, 50% of…
Cathryn Lavery: So he kind of just left the day-to-day. But then it was, you’re, like, hamstrung with decisions. And so then it basically was, like, 2019. We, like, discussed selling, but then it’s, like, I… Nobody wanted the business unless I was staying in the business. And so I was like, well, nobody’s offering you… Like, the only offers you’re getting are based on me staying and working. And so I was like, better the devil you know than the devil you don’t. So I didn’t want to go in. And also, for you, the people that were coming, I was like, I don’t like… they’re giving us this valuation, but it’s completely unrealistic. And it’s also unrealistic because I can see the type of attitude that they have with the team, and they won’t be here any longer because it’ll be such a terrible work environment. So, like, this valuation you’re seeing does not exist basically because, you know, I remember at one point, there was some trademark issue, and this guy was like, who needs to get fired? Like, that was his first response to this, like, small thing. And I’m like, there were just, like, red flags where I’m like, this doesn’t make sense. And there was a huge haul of other reasons why it didn’t make sense. So then it became, okay, maybe I… We sell the whole thing, but nobody wanted it unless I was going to stay. And then at that point, like, I hired a COO to sort of, like, work with me. He actually started as a marketing manager and eventually became the COO. And he’s the reason why I was able to sell when I did later. But I ended up buying out the business partner. Like, took on some, like, personal debt in order to get him away. And that was in 2020. And that negotiation took, like, nine months. He was also going through a really contentious divorce. So what was insane was my 2021 resolution was, like, fewer legal bills because you had a personal lawyer, a business lawyer. He had divorce lawyers on both sides.
Jasmine Star: Got it.
Cathryn Lavery: And I actually had to hire a divorce attorney in his state to be able to, like, manage their divorce. And, like, I got… Like, I said, I got divorced in 2017. We literally did everything without a lawyer and, like, stayed on good terms. Didn’t cost the business a cent. And I paid more in legal fees for his divorce than my own. Yeah. Like, I had to hire a divorce attorney in New Jersey to deal with their divorce.
Jasmine Star: Oh, my gosh. Okay, so this is in 2020.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah.
Jasmine Star: You buy him out. You take on personal debt to buy him out.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah.
Jasmine Star: But you’re free.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah.
Jasmine Star: And this is yours. And so what are you feeling? Are you, like, I’m building… What are you… Where… Where’s your head at? Are you…
Cathryn Lavery: I mean, I’m excited that it’s done. I’m like, oh, my God, now I can… Because it’s really difficult. So here’s what’s happening: 2020 was insane. We have COVID. We have supply chain issues. I also… Because it was, like, issues with the business partner locally, I had a really good team that, like, kept things going even when I’m… Because it’s really difficult, right? You have a team that you have to support, but you’re also negotiating a buyout of a company that you don’t want to grow too much because then you have to pay more.
Jasmine Star: That’s right.
Cathryn Lavery: But so you don’t have to lay anyone off either. So you’re walking this tightrope of, like, I don’t want to grow too much or, like, come up with any of my better ideas because I’m gonna have to pay him more. So it’s, like, these incentives are weird. And I dealt with an inventory manager who embezzled from the company, and I found out about it as I was going through all this stuff with my business partner because he was basically all in 2012. Yeah, 2020 was, like, you know, I don’t know if you remember March 2020. Everyone’s like, oh, you have to, like, batten down the hatches. Business is going to be hard. Like, yeah, hold your cash. And I’m literally, like, going through this negotiation. Our factory in China has shut down because of this coronavirus we’re hearing about. I… And then I had just found out about this embezzlement with this guy that I’d worked with. And I’m just like, I, there’s no reserves here. And so then I spent the next six months dealing with that. And then it’s also, like, even though I had a remote team, this guy actually, he’d, like, met my family because he lived in New York, too. And I would, like, bring him to comedy shows. So it wasn’t, like, it was this, like, random guy I hadn’t met. And so I’m like, oh, you were stealing from us the whole time. I actually have a YouTube video where I broke down exactly how he did it because he wasn’t, like, stealing money from my bank account or anything. And it’s funny. So my… So I’m actually from Northern Ireland, and my brother, I don’t come from a business background. Like, my family are all, like, doctors and, like, have normal jobs. And so I put this video up of, like, this guy, like, embezzling $230,000 from me. And, oh, my God. I, you know, I put it up, and my brother calls me, he’s like, I saw your video. This guy stole all our money from you. God, that’s awful. How much money did you make anyway? And I, like, he didn’t steal the money from a bank account. He was essentially, like, at the time, we would run all of our inventory off spreadsheets, and he would sell to bulk order customers. And they thought they were paying us, but they were actually paying his, like, personal Stripe account. And so because we didn’t have, like, good audit systems…
Jasmine Star: Oh, God. Yeah.
Cathryn Lavery: And so how I found out about it is I… Someone was selling against us on Amazon, this, like, not even our top product. And I was… I ordered it, and I was like, look, there’s three things that are going on here. This is either a counterfeit product, someone’s taking inventory, or our supplier is, like, screwing us.
Jasmine Star: Yes.
Cathryn Lavery: But I’m like, if it… We’ve worked with the same supplier for, like, six years, and it’s also not our main product. So I don’t know why they would go for this one. Okay, so let’s just assume it’s either a counterfeit or, like, someone’s stealing inventory. And when I ordered… ordered it, it looked exactly like ours. So I’m like, let’s just assume, like, someone’s taking inventory from the warehouse. And so I had this guy start to do audits and essentially auditing himself. And then what happened?
Jasmine Star: Oh, my…
Cathryn Lavery: Nothing was adding up. And I actually always assumed positive intent of, like… Oh, I just thought… thought he was, like, negligent. And I fired him for being negligent. And then I got into his email, and I realized that he was… He deleted all of his emails for one… Like, it was bare. Luckily, I was able to recover it. And so my team was like, oh, he’s, like, Stripe invoices and stuff. Plus PayPal invoices of that. He was selling stuff. And then he was going into our… It was so smart. He was so smart and dumb. And I’ll share with you why. So he was going into our 3PL and then going into existing orders, editing all the information of an existing order, and then reshipping it so it didn’t look like a new shipment. And so whenever I was going to the 3PL, and I was, like, clicking through the order, and all the information was different than what is in Shopify. And then I contacted the three people, like, who… who edited these orders, and they told me it was him. And… And that’s when I realized what was going on. He actually did get arrested for it. I worked with, like, he was in Denver, and I worked with, like, the Denver police because I’m like, he… He’s gonna do it to someone else. He’s clearly a crook. And so I watch enough Dateline. I’m like, I will give you all the evidence.
Jasmine Star: I like Dateline.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah. I’m like, yeah. It’s like, Shark Tank. I’m like, here…
Jasmine Star: Yeah.
Cathryn Lavery: And so this guy, he was like, you should have become, like, a detective because I’m giving him all the information. So he really didn’t have to do much detective work.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: And so the guy got arrested, and it came out of the blue because he didn’t know I knew about all the stuff. I just never said anything. He just thought he got fired for negligence. And then six months later, a detective calls him and was like, basically trying to get a comment from him. And then he was like, oh, someone stole my identity. And I’m like, I would love someone to steal my identity and put money into my bank account, right? Like, hundreds of thousands. And so they ended up arresting him. He spent one night in jail, and then he, like, pleaded to a felony. And now every few months, I get what I consider my unofficial 401(k), which is, like, small restitution payments that will never add up to…
Jasmine Star: Right.
Cathryn Lavery: Like, what he stole. But now at least he has it on his, like, record, and he won’t be able to do it to someone else.
Jasmine Star: Okay, so what year is this?
Cathryn Lavery: That was in… So 2020 is when I discovered it. 2021 is when he, like, you know, we did the whole, like, COVID court thing.
Jasmine Star: Okay, and so then what year do you sell?
Cathryn Lavery: 2022. October of 2022.
Jasmine Star: So that’s… Okay. So 2021, that’s buttoned up, and you’re getting micropayments for restitution, which is… Hey, it is about… It’s about people knowing, and it’s about him not doing it to somebody else. Okay, and so then what mindset are you in when you’re like, I’m open to selling, or were you approached, or what… What happened in 2022?
Cathryn Lavery: So basically, 2021 and 2022, I was just focused on, okay, how do I get this business… I mean, it was… It always had to be profitable, but I’d lost some money in the last year or two because of the… I mean, embezzlement and the business partner thing. So I’m like, how do I set it up so I could sell it if I wanted? And then I had a baby in March of 2022, and I didn’t really take any time off after that. Like, I was… I thought I could be one of these people that were like, oh, yeah, the baby sleeps, and I’ll work. It doesn’t really work quite like that. So I didn’t really take much of a break. And then, luckily, I had a really good COO, and he was running things. But when I came back, when, you know, when I sort of came back, I was approached by a couple of people. One gave me an offer that I wasn’t that excited about. So I’m like, I’m not doing it for this. And then… But what I did was, like, rather than continue down this path, let me just open up other conversations and, like, let it be known that I might sell. And so I’m in… I was in, like, a Slack group. It was actually, like, a crypto e-commerce group that I’m in with, like, 40 guys. And I was just like, yeah, I’m thinking of selling. And actually, one of those guys put me in touch with the people that ended up buying. And I just, at that point, was like, I’ll say yes to any conversation. So I got on a call with these guys, and I wasn’t really taking it that seriously. So I was just, you know, sharing what was going on. And then they ended up giving me… I turned down the other offer at this point, and they ended up giving me an offer. And it’s funny, whenever you’re, like, selling your business, there’s so many times when it could, like, fall through at any moment.
Jasmine Star: Right.
Cathryn Lavery: So, like, my wife, like, the day before we’re supposed to close, like, is it going to close? I’m like, honestly, I have no idea because there’s just so much, and, like, I’ve heard of literally people signing the documents, waiting for the wire, and the wire never comes. And the buyer, like, literally ghosts after months of due diligence. So I’m like, not celebrating early or anything. And then I ended up, like, selling then with the goal of, like, okay, now I can take some time off without the pressure of, like, at the time, you know, we have a recession heading, rates are up. I’m hearing about this looming thing in the future, and I’m like, I just had a baby. Like, I’ve put so much into this company for years, buying out the business partner. Like, if I just, like, sell, I can breathe.
Jasmine Star: Yeah.
Cathryn Lavery: Not have, like, things, like, above my head in case something goes wrong. Yep. And then I can figure out what I want to do next. So, like, even though I loved the brand, the company, and the team, I was like, I need a break, and I can see kind of in the future what could happen if I don’t take some money off the table. And so that… that’s why I sold.
Jasmine Star: Amazing. How much of a break did you take?
Cathryn Lavery: I took 14… I mean, when I say break, I, like, I like tinkering with stuff. So I was, like, building… You know, we moved into a new house. So I’m like, I literally built an in-ground cold plunge in my yard, like, this… Oh, I’ve seen design. Yeah. So I’m, like, designing it. I didn’t dig the hole. I hired a guy to dig it. But I’m literally, like, learning plumbing and stuff. And what’s funny is when you’ve, I don’t know, been a workaholic, my wife would come home, and I’m, like, like, lesbian stereotype, Home Depot, like, everything. And she’s coming home, and she’s like, oh, how was your day? And I’m, like… And I’m learning, like, electrical and plumbing to, like, build this thing. So I’m, like, learning a lot, and it’s fun, but… But I’m like, well, nothing I did today made money, so I’m actually useless. And it’s… Even though I had money, more money than I’d ever had, there’s, like, a scarcity mindset of, like, oh, my God, it’s gonna be gone, and I don’t have any. And God forbid I would just do something for fun that wasn’t making money. And so it took me a while to, like, detach the being productive and making money and, like, being in a scarcity mindset.
Jasmine Star: Wow.
Cathryn Lavery: During that time off where my wife’s like, you could just, like, you can take time and, like, do the projects you wanted. And, like, I was learning to code, and… And even though I was doing stuff that I liked, it was, like, I wasn’t happy because I was like, oh, my God, I… I don’t know what I’m gonna do next. And, like, I have to figure out what my next project is because…
Jasmine Star: And value became intertwined. And all of a sudden, when someone’s like, you could just be… And you’re like, wait, but what value am I bringing? If I don’t bring value, then what… what worth am I creating?
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah.
Jasmine Star: I think that that is a beautiful… And for us to, like, stay grounded in you taking a step back to understand, like, to undo those two pieces for you to kind of come back to you, and then you get to a point where you look back at the business. How were you involved? I mean, was it a complete buyout? Were you involved in any bit at all?
Cathryn Lavery: I was, like, an ambassador.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: And I was supposed to be on some meetings that they would schedule, but they never scheduled anything. And so I would, like, send them ideas. I would send emails into the void.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: And I mean, I totally get it. A lot of times, they want the founder to, like, craft their own vision or whatever. Yeah. Which is fine. There was an earn-out component tied to, okay, this… the sale, which is pretty common. But… And I still could see, like, the numbers. And so I’m… I’m just concerned about, like, this earn-out.
Jasmine Star: Yes.
Cathryn Lavery: Because it was… I thought it was a pretty easy goal to hit, and it was… But there… This company was, like, a new private equity company, so they were just kind of starting out, but then they were buying brands, and then they kind of, like, took some autonomy away from the internal people. So, like, they couldn’t approve purchase orders. So then we don’t have inventory for Q1 because they hadn’t hired a CFO yet to…
Jasmine Star: You know, they’re making it really difficult for you to hit your earn-out.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah, yeah. And I don’t think they did it on purpose. I just think they, like, were trying to build the plane as they were flying it, and things didn’t happen. So I was just like, oh, so that’s also a scarcity thing where I’m like, oh, I’m not going to get this earn-out. So I have to… It’s, like, a shorter runway than I thought I had. And so I’m just very much, like, did not match reality. When I had, like, way less money, I was, like, way more optimistic. It doesn’t make any sense.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: And so then a year in, so I… I saw they weren’t going to hit the earn-out, and so I’d mentally, like, said goodbye to that money. Sorry, I need to go…
Jasmine Star: No, please drink your water. I mean, I… We’re… I’m making you talk the whole time because the story is so fascinating.
Cathryn Lavery: So where were we? Oh, yeah. So basically, I took time off. Like, okay, let me figure it out. And actually, when I… One thing when I sold is, I still loved the company and the brand and the products, but I didn’t like how I built it because I kind of built my own prison. Because we’re always… Because we grew so fast and had success, it’s, like, you always have to beat that. Yes. Year after year.
Jasmine Star: Yes.
Cathryn Lavery: Because God forbid, like, right…
Jasmine Star: You would just flatline or, like, shrink. I get that.
Cathryn Lavery: And so… And then we had a bigger team, so I’m like, oh, people’s lives and, like, kids are dependent on me. And so it’s really difficult to, like, move or shift things whenever you have that risk involved. And so that’s another reason I sold, because the new company was going to at least keep people on for six months. And so I was like, okay, they have a bunch of resources that I don’t have. Like, everyone got a bonus and a raise, and I got to leave. And it felt like, okay, now they can, like, figure out how we go from here next. But… So at six months, the PE firm told me they were going to let everyone go and move to, like, more of an agency model. And so my… My old team members had already told me that. And so I ended up, like, a few friends who run companies hired some of them. I think one guy who’s in Hampton, actually, I think he has, like, four of my old people.
Jasmine Star: Okay, wait, pause, pause, pause, pause. So I’m gonna at least do a little bit of a… of a side note.
Cathryn Lavery: Sorry. We can, like, not mention Hampton.
Jasmine Star: No, no, I think it’s good. I think it’s good. It’s good because it’ll give you a chance to rest your voice. You could totally hydrate. So Kat had just mentioned a friend of mine, and then she had mentioned this word, Hampton. Now, the reason why Kat and I got connected was because of a gentleman by the name of Sam, who’s a co-founder of Hampton, and it is a CEO executive group, kind of like a coaching mastermind-type thing. And Sam was in Austin, became very good friends with Kat. And I said, Sam, I’m coming to Austin. I want to connect with amazing people. And he said, you have to connect with Kat. And I started digging into her story. We got connected. I’m watching her iteration and her growth. And now Sam and Kat are really good friends. Like, legit good friends. Like, he goes in your cold plunge. Like, he makes it inappropriate with, like, 18 people in your cold plunge, and he’s, like, all about it. Right? And so he’s just… I didn’t mean inappropriate.
Cathryn Lavery: It’s just, he, like, babysat my daughter a few times.
Jasmine Star: Yeah. Like, they’re… They’re, like, legit homies. So he launches Hampton, and he’s like, Kat, why don’t you get in? And I… One thing that I really liked about Kat was, like, she had said, well, at the time, I’m not building anything. And so when I go all in, I go all in. If I’m not building, I’m not gonna be in. And so then she tells me off-camera that when she… Oh, I’m gonna… I’m gonna get to the part of the story. Anyway, here’s… Here’s, like, the little ellipsis. This is what’s foreshadowing. She joins Hampton, and I see Kat in Hampton. I was like, hey, girl. Hey. Let’s podcast. Okay. Now, when she said her friend was in Hampton, that’s the organization we’re talking about. And this friend hired four of your former team members. And this is y’all just taking care of each other. That’s amazing.
Cathryn Lavery: Yeah, I mean, not taking care of, like, he needed someone. And I actually only sent him over one person. And so… And then what happened is, like, that one person hired the other three.
Jasmine Star: Nice. Good, good.
Cathryn Lavery: Because one of them… She… One was the only one that stayed during the transition.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: With the… With the PE firm, like, after that six months. And so whenever they were, like, the PE firm… I guess, spoiler, they called me at 12 months, in, like, actually 14 months post-acquisition, were like, hey, we’re shutting down. We’re, like, returning what’s left to investors. And we’re, like, just going to work on other projects. And at that point, I think they bought three brands, so ours was the first, and then two others, and they were, like, selling them back either to the owner or to, like, someone else. And so they’re like, do you want to buy it back again, BestSelf? And to be honest, when he first brought it up, I was like, ah, no, because I’m thinking back to where I was when I sold it, where it was, like, I had this… I had, like, all this responsibility. But when I, like, journaled on it and really thought about it, I’m like, oh, how could I do it differently this time because I don’t have the same, like, burden that I had before where, like, oh, I have to make this payroll every month. I have to, like, we had sales, we had a brand, we had product. There was no team anymore. But I’m like, I’ll figure it out. So I ended up, like, negotiating a really good deal with the private equity firm to get it back. And that was the end of January of 2024.
Jasmine Star: That is so good. Okay. You know, like, I would have loved the podcast, period, the end. But the fact that you bought it back, like, just, like, the strategic move of it all. I’m sure there’s an element of destiny, luck in all of it, but in January 2024, you buy it back, you negotiate a deal that you feel… What are you doing differently now? Having looked back at your journey and said, when you were journaling, using your own journal, when you said, how could I do this differently? What did you come up with?
Cathryn Lavery: I mean, there’s, like, ChatGPT wasn’t around when I sold the business. And I use that all the time. Like, there’s so much minutiae in your day that would… I’d be caught up, and I’d be, like, handed off to my COO or someone else to just handle then. Now I have, like, a 24/7 assistant.
Jasmine Star: Give me an example. Like, what would you hand to your COO that you’re… You’re getting an answer from ChatGPT, literally?
Cathryn Lavery: Like, can you write an email? Can you write a letter to deal with this sales tax issue in California? Because I don’t want to deal with it. And I literally, like, I… I will use it for everything. I’m like, here’s a letter I got. Can you write a response? Like, this is what’s going on. And I’ll just talk it into my phone or whatever, and it will just write it out. It will take me 10 minutes to fax it and send it. What would happen before is either I would hand it off, or I… What would actually really happen is I would… would not do it for months.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: And then I would pay more tax later.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: And so that, times a million, of, like, forecasting for product, that just so much minutiae that you deal with that you don’t even realize you deal with until you don’t have to deal with it anymore. And actually, my time off, I learned, like, coding, and I also learned how to use AI for, like, different things because I’m like, I’ll use it whatever I do next. And now I’m like, okay, I could… I can use it for a lot of things that I used to have to hire people for, and now I do have to hire people. But I’ve just been. Instead of going back to, oh, let me rehire all the same people I had before the same team was like, what’s the minimum amount I need to get the job done in a way that’s, like, profitable and fun? And I’m not like, building my own prison where I have to keep making revenue.
Jasmine Star: So I’m just. My mind is freaking blown right now. What was the percentage of decrease like, when you went back?
Cathryn Lavery: It went. So it dropped maybe 25% in revenue. One thing.
Jasmine Star: Oh, no, no, not revenue. Excuse me. Team size. So it’s like you come and you buy the business back. How many team members are there?
Cathryn Lavery: Zero.
Jasmine Star: So zero.
Cathryn Lavery: Like, they were like, oh, the p. Firms. Like, oh, do you have a team to help you with the transition? And I’m like, nope, just me.
Jasmine Star: Okay, so it’s just you and you’ve hired. But when you look at the size of your team now versus what it would had to have been to sustain the rate of growth now how much smaller percentage wise is it? 50? Where did you have a 10% team and now you have a 5% team.
Cathryn Lavery: I mean, I’m thinking like, payroll, like contractors that we used to hire.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: Let’s say it was a million dollars a year. So it’s like, good. A quarter.
Jasmine Star: Lord. Wow.
Cathryn Lavery: So it’s like, how do I. You know, we used to have, like, this bookkeeping CFO team that, like, made a bunch of mistakes, but there wasn’t really another option. Now you have this thing called finaloop, which, like, pulls all your data so you can get like, Live pianos anytime. So I’m like, so connected with my profit margin any day of the week. And then just using tools in a smart way like that alone saves me like $6,000 a month. And you know how many journals you have to sell to pay this? Sorry, I shouldn’t swear.
Jasmine Star: No, the podcast is all about you. Like, it is you. Do you. This is the podcast for this.
Cathryn Lavery: Like, so in my. When I first started bestsell you, I usually, like, would equate prices to how many journals I have to sell to make this. So I’m like, on the airplane.
Jasmine Star: Yeah.
Cathryn Lavery: Oh, I have to sell like a quarter of a journal to pay for this. Wi Fi. Is it worth it? Can I, like, sell like, at least one journal to make it worthwhile? And now I. That I have a toddler, I’m like, oh, this is like a month of daycare. So, like, that’s how I’m equating. So I’m. Instead of scaling back what I suspend, I’m like, I. I set it up as a whole other company so everything is fresh. So instead of. It’s like subtracting, it’s adding. And one, one rule I had is like, I’m gonna buy this company back, but I’m not putting any more money into it. So everything has to be capitalized through sales, which I still haven’t had to put any money into it. I just bought it back.
Jasmine Star: Okay.
Cathryn Lavery: And then use the revenue from sales to, like, do everything else.
Jasmine Star: So what’s next?
Cathryn Lavery: I mean, I’m still like, stabilizing and like, like figuring out who it is that I need for my team, but I think what’s next is, I mean, I called it Best Self because I’m really into personal development and I, like, now I have a kid, I’m like, okay, well, where’s that going to take me? That I could, like, build around your.
Jasmine Star: Next product line, baby.
Cathryn Lavery: But I mean, I very much into like, okay, what other problems could we solve? But yeah, I love the idea of, like, okay, I have the products and the brands back. I don’t have this, like, where I have to do anything, which gives me freedom to, like, do whatever I want, which I didn’t have before. So. So could I have done it before? Yes, But I also had like a six month old when I sold it before, and I did not have the energy that I needed to, like, turn the ship. And now I feel like I got a clean slate. And at this point, like, everything’s gravy.
Jasmine Star: I, you know, I knew so many parts of the story and then I just got to learn a lot of other parts of the story. And I think that wherever people in their journey you have, you’ve been an expander, an expander of how to fund start their business. An expander of how to come back after someone’s embezzled, an expander after buying a business partner out and taking on personal debt. An expander of what it looks like to un unentangle worth and value and what productivity is when there’s just time and rest to grow. And then an expander of what it means to come back, do it on your own terms and do it entirely differently. And I find that like so beautiful and so inspiring. I, I can’t thank you enough for coming in and sharing this story because people are hearing it and they’re listening and they’re saying there is a piece of her that I now get to carry to change what it is that I’m doing in the approach that I’m taking. So your time on the show has been so valuable, but it has nothing to do with your worth. Ladies and gentlemen, Kat. Where can people find you? What, where do you like to connect? Where are we pointing?
Cathryn Lavery: Twitter, Instagram, Beautiful, whatever we’re calling it. Yeah, my just my name on, on X is that’s where I like really talk to people.
Jasmine Star: Okay, good.
Cathryn Lavery: Or Instagram or I also talk about anything I’m doing business wise on LittleMight.com and that’s like personal blog. So if you’ve been following it, you saw the embezzlement stuff, the business partner stuff. As I was going through it, I’m like, wow. One thing is like journaling when you’re going through stuff. So with the business partner things, I’d be like up all night. I’m like, I have to, I just have to write something down. And this became like a 50 page Google Doc of half of it was useful and half of just like, here’s why I will never put myself in this situation again. And that actually I’m like, okay, what could I take from this for like an actual article that could help people? And there’s been so many people reached out were like, oh my God, your business partner article. I’ve gone back to it so many times. So yeah, you can learn. I like take my lemonade or take my lemons and I make lemonade. I’m like, here’s how not to get embezzled from here’s how to go into a business partnership. So if you’re curious by the behind the scenes of business. It’s@littlemy.com and then products bestself co and I’ll make a coupon code jasmine so that anyone that wants to buy any of the products that I talk about will get like a 20 discount.
Jasmine Star: Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, you guys use the code. I didn’t know the code existed. It is.
Cathryn Lavery: It doesn’t.
Jasmine Star: But definitely. It will definitely exist by the time this show goes live. I don’t get anything from it. If you have liked the lemonade that Kat has served you, give yourself a gift. Invest in yourself and see what you can do in three months. And in case you’re not quite sure how to begin the journaling journey, Kat, her team, her business is more than there to Support you. So LittleMight.com BestElf co Jasmine is the promo code. Connect with her on x, Twitter or whatever the heck that we’re talking about. It’s thank you for watching and listening to the Jasmine star show. And Kat, thank you for being here having me.